Ever wondered what it takes to leap from being an individual contributor to a leader? Jump in as we pique your curiosity and unravel this mystery with Sumitra Narayanan, a seasoned professional at Braze who leads a CS scale team. Sumitra generously shares her experiences, discussing her path from a humble contributor to becoming a key leader in her field. Her tale is laced with lessons, insights, and a wealth of knowledge that will prove invaluable to those looking to chart a similar course in their careers.
The conversation progresses to explore the art of decision-making as a leader, and how to maintain harmony between employee happiness and business needs. We also cast a spotlight on the emerging leadership trends in customer success, emphasizing the importance of balancing empathy for people with the drive for results.
Join us on this revealing journey into the heart of leadership in customer success!
Ever wondered what it takes to leap from being an individual contributor to a leader? Jump in as we pique your curiosity and unravel this mystery with Sumitra Narayanan, a seasoned professional at Braze who leads a CS scale team. Sumitra generously shares her experiences, discussing her path from a humble contributor to becoming a key leader in her field. Her tale is laced with lessons, insights, and a wealth of knowledge that will prove invaluable to those looking to chart a similar course in their careers.
The conversation progresses to explore the art of decision-making as a leader, and how to maintain harmony between employee happiness and business needs. We also cast a spotlight on the emerging leadership trends in customer success, emphasizing the importance of balancing empathy for people with the drive for results.
Join us on this revealing journey into the heart of leadership in customer success!
Welcome to Innovations in Leadership, a Success League Radio production. This is a podcast focused on Customer Success and the leaders who are designing and implementing best practices in our field. This podcast is brought to you by The Success League, a consulting and training firm focused on developing Customer Success programs that drive revenue. My name is Kristen Hayer and I'm the host of Innovations in Leadership and the founder and CEO of The Success League, and today I'm talking to Sumitra Narayanan, and she is the leader of a CS Scale team at Braze. She recently wrote an article for CS Insider on the transition from individual contributor to leader, and she'll be sharing her perspectives on that transition today. So, Sumitra, welcome to the show.
Sumitra Narayanan:Thank you so much for having me, Kristen. It's such a pleasure to be here.
Kristen Hayer:How did you end up in the field of Customer Success? Can you tell us a little about your career path?
Sumitra Narayanan:Yes, certainly so far. I have nine plus years of Customer Success experience in predominantly B2B SaaS high-tech environments. So when I first entered the industry I had just completed my Master's in computer science so the other CS I knew I wanted to apply myself technically but also have a high degree of collaboration and human interaction in my career. But as a fresh grad I thought I'd have to put in a few years as a software engineer before I could land that kind of role. So, interestingly, Clevertab which back then was a tiny series, a startup found me and thought I'd be a strong fit as their first Technical CSM. So that's how I got into Customer Success, though I hadn't ever even heard about it before then. So I leaped at the chance and really loved it. So back at Clevertab, I wore a variety of hats outside of the CSM role, ranging from pre and post-sale solution engineer to even content marketer, and really deeply influenced how we built and scaled our customer success program globally. So overall, my time at Clevertab was an excellent opportunity to gain my bearings in Customer Success, really cementing those fundamentals of building relationships and driving outcomes, both of which are critical to Customer Success, as we all know.
Sumitra Narayanan:So after Clevertab was when I made that leap from IC to leadership at Linear B. So at Linear B I came in as the first CS hire but was also tasked with owning and building our Customer Success program from scratch. So I brought in our first few hires, built out our core process and strategy and can proudly say that I played a role in bringing us from an early stage series a startup to a growth stage series B company over just a little bit more than a year, though, I was pretty much drinking from the fire hose and learning so many things on the fly. Today I'm continuing my leadership journey as a manager of a Customer Success scale team at Braze, which is the industry leading platform for customer engagement, and it's actually a very similar space to Clevertab.
Sumitra Narayanan:So to conclude, I'll say this though I got into Customer Success somewhat by accident, I felt more and more compelled to stay over time. CS is really the backbone, that's core, to protecting and growing a company's revenue. In fact, McKinsey found that anywhere from one third to half of total revenue growth comes from existing customers, and we also know that it's magnitude so anywhere from five to 25 times from Harvard Business Review more expensive to acquire new business than it is to retain or grow your existing customer base. So, outside of that commercial component, of course, I really enjoyed being on the front lines of the product, influencing its development while building lasting relationships, and that's my career path so far.
Kristen Hayer:That's great. First, some context. Can you tell us a little bit about Braze and your team there, and just for the audience, because I don't know if everybody knows Braze what does the company do and how is customer success structured across your organization?
Sumitra Narayanan:So, first of all, Braze, as I had mentioned, is a customer engagement product in the MarTech space. So the marketing technology space and our platform empowers brands to create seamless, personalized and engaging app and web experiences through cross-channel marketing strategies. So think push, sms, email, whatsapp, in-app messaging and so much more so that these brands can meet their users where they're at and build strong relationships with them. So hopefully that clarifies a little bit more about Braze and what we do. And you were asking about how CS is structured in our organization as well. So our global customer success team is broken down based on region and customer segment.
Sumitra Narayanan:Broadly, these customer segments are SMB, so, as we all know, small and medium businesses with more of a one-to-many customer success approach than those segments with a one-to-one CS approach. So that starts with our commercial so also known as scale segment, which I lead a team for. Then we have Enterprise and Global Strategic. So naturally, customers are placed into these segments based on account, size, ARR, complexity and other factors. And so, about my team specifically, I lead one of our US West Coast-based commercial or scale Customer Success teams. I deeply enjoy being in scale because it really is to me the best of both worlds. We work with some of the most fast-paced, high-tech, quickly scaling customers, and we've got some great logos under our belt and these customers truly combine that agility of SMB with the sophistication of Enterprise, which is what I like to tell everybody who asks about scale and why it's special. I really feel that we have the best of what world's there. I've got about six to seven talented CSMs on my team, in varying levels of seniority, from CSM to up until senior and even principal CSM.
Kristen Hayer:That's great. We're really going to talk about you, I think, today, more than your team, but thanks for the background. It really helps people who are listening to visualize where you're coming from. Today You've gone through that transition from individual contributor to leader, which is really what we're going to talk about. Can you tell us about that transition from your perspective? What were the biggest surprises that you found?
Sumitra Narayanan:Yes, certainly that transition from individual contributor to leader happened for me several years ago when I moved from Clever Top to Linear B. I knew from the get go that it would be challenging, but I didn't anticipate where exactly I'd have issues, because I just didn't know yet. And you don't know what you don't know. Somehow. I expected initially that managing people on my team would be similar to managing customers, but I didn't realize just how different those two skills that are. You can certainly apply learnings from managing customers to managing people on your team, but it doesn't always translate the same way.
Sumitra Narayanan:I feel like you're much more closely involved on a minute-by-minute basis with people on your team than you are with your customers. I also thought that knowing theoretically what to do as a new manager or leader would immediately enable me to do right as a manager. I was disappointed every single time I made mistakes and I would be really hard on myself. I would overthink and be like, oh my God, I can't believe I did this or I can't believe I said that. Don't get me wrong, but there are so many great leadership books out there, like Radical Candor, the coaching habit or the making of a manager. It's important for new leaders to prioritize that theoretical learning too. It does take a lot of making mistakes, thinking, feedback, some actually, not just some a lot of uncomfortable learnings, a lot of patience with yourself and practice.
Kristen Hayer:Yeah, I agree I think my first leadership role. I look back on that now and I think those poor people I just tortured my first team. I went down the road of being a little bit more of a micromanager, I think, than I should have been. It takes time to learn that that doesn't work and grow out of that. If that's the thing that you struggle with, other people struggle on the other side of the spectrum where they don't put enough constraints in place for the team and the team just runs wild Unless you treat it like its own discipline. It is harder to make the transition. You really do need to think about it in a disciplined way. I love the resources that you mentioned. I also know that you wrote a really fantastic article for CS Insider recently on making this leap from individual contributor to leader. In that article, you outlined six things that new leaders should be prepared for. Can you share those with us?
Sumitra Narayanan:Yeah, definitely In no particular order these learnings are well. The first one is about being put on the spot to make quick decisions as a manager. This happens a lot when you're a manager, and it's important to synthesize perspectives and give yourself a beat to think through things before arriving at a decision. That's one of the main learnings that I took away as I made that leap from individual contributor to leader. That then brings me to the next one, which is taking a step back to understand the bigger picture, asking why. To understand the real challenge we're seeking to solve. That greatly streamlines our ability to make an impact. Then the next one is speaking buy-in from your team as a manager. While you might take the final call on something or have it change trickle down from higher up, it is really important to understand how your team will be affected, solicit their thoughts and ultimately communicate the benefits of that decision or change. Actually, a study in the Journal of Applied Psychology found that individuals who are part of a collaborative decision-making process were so much more committed to that decision and had higher job satisfaction.
Sumitra Narayanan:After that, there's building strong bonds with other team leaders. Oftentimes, multiple teams are working closely together towards the same objectives. Why not understand how we can combine synergies and win together. Then there's knowing where to take charge and where to stay flexible, which was actually a surprising one for me. I'd always thought that managers needed to be in charge, but what that actually looks like really depends on the situation. The ideal state is to actually empower your team to do their best work, which requires a balance of giving autonomy while also setting the right expectations. That balance, for me, was definitely a big learning as well. Then, finally, there's finding or developing your voice as a leader, so being persuasive and data-informed as a leader. I think there's a big misconception that a strong leader needs to be an Alpha type or aggressive, but I honestly feel that that's inaccurate. You can be soft spoken yet firm, and, in fact, be even more effective at driving outcomes, especially when you come prepared with data and solid reasoning. Those are some of those takeaways in a nutshell.
Kristen Hayer:Yeah, I think you're spot on with the persuasiveness and it doesn't take somebody who's super outgoing or super charismatic to be persuasive. I think you can be persuasive in your own way and I like that you highlight that you don't have to be that stereotypical male leader type to be a good leader. I think you can absolutely have a different style and still accomplish what you need to. One of the items you mentioned at the beginning of your article was that you'll be put on the spot to answer questions immediately when sharing leadership. Tell us a little bit more about that challenge and how to deal with it.
Sumitra Narayanan:Right. This is definitely something that gave me a lot of anxiety as a new manager and, honestly, there are still situations where this does prove to be tricky. It was only as I reflected on this that I realized that we don't need to have all the answers as managers, even though sometimes we're pressured to Really thinking about it. In fact, the best managers guide their team to find the right answers themselves with insightful, open-ended questions. As an example, you might ask your team how would you prioritize this task and why? Reflective listening is a powerful technique too. For instance, I might say it's something like I understand that the most important concern for you here is XYZ. Is that right? Honestly, using these insightful, open-ended questions and reflective listening techniques have been really helpful for me as a manager, even when I don't always have all the right answers immediately, and has really helped empower my team to find the right answers.
Sumitra Narayanan:But, with that said, there are occasions where you, as a manager, still need to take a call or make a decision in order to balance broader business needs with employee satisfaction.
Sumitra Narayanan:In these situations, it's very tempting to be hasty and make an on-the-fly decision to show the team what you're doing, to prove yourself as a manager, but I think it's important to remember that thoughtful and good decisions are rarely ever made in a snap.
Sumitra Narayanan:It's really in the best interest of all sides so you, your team and even your company to take the time to step back and consider the options all sides before moving to a decision. You can still move quickly without having to make a split second decision and to this end, I find that synthesizing various perspectives solicited from other team members into decision-making is a really smart and efficient way to uncover various options without putting the burden squarely on your own shoulders as a manager, which can really be overwhelming. Thinking through solutions entirely on your own can lead to tunnel vision, where you might have missed an edge case here or there, or even missed something critical altogether, and I've seen this time and time again in my experience. In fact, the power of synthesizing perspectives is data-backed as well. The Harvard Business Review published an article citing research showing that diverse teams possessing higher levels of collective intelligence excel at problem-solving and decision-making tasks, so hopefully that's helpful and makes managers feel a little bit less put on the spot to make decisions quickly.
Kristen Hayer:Yeah, and I think too, the other thing to remember as a leader is that you have the resource of your peers as well, and sometimes you can't have candid conversations with your team, but you can have those candid conversations with your peers and ask for their advice. So you know, don't forget that you have a human resources department. Hopefully you have peers that you can rely on too. I know in my experience a few jobs ago, before I started this company, I had to go through a acquisition. So our company was acquired by a larger organization which obviously I was one of the executives involved in that.
Kristen Hayer:I couldn't talk about it, but you know, employees have the sense that there's something going on and they kind of want to know in the last questions and you're not allowed to talk about it.
Kristen Hayer:And so I think then, you know, without answering the questions, you can say, hey, you know there are things going on and I can't talk about them, but I can assure you that the things that are going on are positive and that as soon as I have anything I can share, I will, and if there's anything that's going to impact you negatively, I will let you know as soon as possible. But so far everything's looking good, and that might have to be your answer sometimes, when it's not something you can talk about, and I think it just takes confidence and feeling you know, strong in your leadership vision, to be able to say that and have your team trust you, and I think you know doing the work to build the relationships with the people on your team can go a long way toward them trusting you. When you say something like that, that you really can't talk about it, so there's situations like that too.
Sumitra Narayanan:Yeah, definitely 100 percent. I mean, I definitely rely on my peers so much for any questions that I have as a manager, and so you know 100 percent are free with you on that one, and I think there's definitely a balance to be maintained in terms of you know just how much you can trickle down to your team and how, depending on the situation. So I think the incident that you brought up during that acquisition definitely resonates with me a lot as well.
Kristen Hayer:In your article you also highlight a framework from the book Radical Candor that you put into your article. Can you briefly describe that framework and talk about how you found it helpful in your own leadership role?
Sumitra Narayanan:Yeah, definitely so. A great framework for decision-making with a team synthesizing all of the various perspectives is the Get Stuff Done or the GSD Wheel, and this was outlined by the founder of the Radical Candor Leadership Philosophy, Kim Scott. So this GSD Wheel has a few initial steps that I found very helpful. Those steps are essentially listen to the team's ideas, then clarify and sharpen these ideas and then debate the pros and cons of each one and finally move on to the decision-making process. So I found this GSD Wheel really helpful in many instances. As a leader, I can even give an example.
Sumitra Narayanan:So most recently I was leading a project and was stuck on the best way to approach something. So essentially I was looking to fix the process inefficiency without over-complicating things, but no solution that I could think of on my own was simple or elegant. So during our next team meeting I decided to solicit their feedback and the steps organically played out in our group discussions. So the first step was essentially all about listening to the team's ideas. So I provided high-level context on my challenge and solicited their ideas, then really listened to each of them. So that is that first step in the GSD Wheel listening to the team's ideas. Then I saw some amazing ideas come in and honed in on the essence of each one. So you can see the second step of the GSD Wheel, the clarify and sharpen ideas step in action here.
Sumitra Narayanan:Then the third step of the GSD Wheel then led to a debate on the pros and cons of each idea, based on others' experiences and observed trends, until finally, step four a clear winner emerged. The idea seemed simple in hindsight, but it wasn't something that I could have actually figured out on my own. So a word of caution here that not every situation is going to be asked cut and dry as a single discussion to listen, clarify, debate and decide per the steps of the GSD Wheel. The example I just shared was a good one, where this unfolded relatively quickly and organically. So I think what's important to keep in mind is leveraging these steps of the GSD framework might take multiple conversations and back and forth, and that's perfectly normal, just as long as you're moving with the intent to make an informed decision within a reasonable timeline. So hopefully that's helpful.
Kristen Hayer:Yeah, I like that you call that out. We always teach things in a way that it makes it sound like it's just all going to happen in one cool, smooth, easy conversation. If you do it this way, it doesn't really happen like that in real life. It can trail over many conversations, many weeks, sometimes months, and that's okay. Exactly, I think that just having the framework in mind, even if it does go on longer, is a great way to make sure that those are productive conversations.
Sumitra Narayanan:Just as long as we're moving that needle.
Kristen Hayer:Yeah, a little bit. Every time, I can tell that you've really embraced your own advice and that you've matured as a leader over your several roles. What results have you seen, both for yourself and for your teams?
Sumitra Narayanan:While I still have plenty to learn, the results have been overwhelmingly positive, most recently at Brays. My team has definitely found my coaching helpful to up-level themselves, and this was evidenced by feedback, even from customers. Actually, I also facilitate a brief knowledge share segment within my team's weekly meetings, and we all love that faked an opportunity to learn something new from one another. Since I came in as a new manager at Brays, taking over a newly formed team, I was extremely concerned about fostering a strong team culture, especially with a number of remote team members.
Sumitra Narayanan:A big win for me was seeing my team come together for the weekly team meeting, even once when I was out of office, which I think is a small but sure sign of team camaraderie. I was really happy about that. Moreover, my team also won an internal competition centered around meeting a joint OKR between our customer success org and support org. This really put my team on the radar across orgs within the entire company actually, and was a really proud moment for me as a manager, who had merely encouraged my team and been a cheerleader for my team from the sidelines. These positive results bubble down to a couple of key learnings for me as a leader. The first one is really that importance of balancing empathy with accountability. And then the second one is knowing that I won't have all the answers myself, but that I can guide and empower my team to find the answers themselves and truly excel.
Kristen Hayer:That's great. I'm going to ask a follow-up question because I think about this a lot myself. How has this helped you personally? Do you feel more confident as a leader? Do you feel more at peace with your leadership role? Has it helped you in your personal life in any way?
Sumitra Narayanan:Yeah, definitely. I think the fact that I came in with a little bit of nervousness around okay, can I really foster a strong team culture Then seeing these positive developments on a cultural front, on an outcome driving front, really reinforced my confidence of you know what. Even if I'm nervous and even if I don't know exactly what I'm doing 100 percent all the time, I feel like I'm generally moving in the right direction. It's definitely reinforced my confidence as a leader and it's definitely reinforced even in my personal life how I approach situations with that can do attitude.
Kristen Hayer:That's great. What advice would you offer to somebody who is considering a move into leadership? They haven't done it yet, but they're thinking about it and it's on their radar and they want to go in that direction. What would be your best piece of advice?
Sumitra Narayanan:Yeah, definitely. I do ask this a lot. To even focus on my team and our career development conversations. I would first start off by asking them to honestly consider whether they're looking to move into leadership merely for career growth or whether it's driven by that genuine inclination to drive outcomes while putting people first. If it's the former, so just for career growth, there are many career paths today that can facilitate growth without having to take on a leadership role. I would advise them to really carefully think through their regions or wanted to move into leadership. Eventually, the answer is that they'd like to move into leadership. I'd ask them to set the stage with this eye-opening Blake Mouton management grid and I can link to it.
Sumitra Narayanan:We can put a link in the show notes, yeah, yeah, so that our listeners can take a look too, but it's fascinating. This Blake Mouton management grid really makes clear the importance of balancing concern for people with concern for results, along the lines of the learning I mentioned earlier about balancing empathy with accountability. Too much concern for people with less concern for results, or too much concern for results with less concern for people, or all around less concern for people and results, all lead to unproductive management. This is something that I would really want incoming leaders to set the stage with, to really set expectations of what good management looks like. I will say, though, that the management grid is just the start. I'd really encourage them to invest in learning management skills via a learning budget that their company might potentially provide.
Sumitra Narayanan:There are a number of robust management courses out there, and sometimes companies like even Braves have helpful built-in management boot camps and training that I've been through that I found really helpful. I'd also recommend reading the following books, too. I can call some of these out, like Radical Candor by Kim Scott, The Coaching Habit by Michael Bungay Stanier, The Making of a Manager by Julie Zhuo, Surrounded by Idiots by Thomas Erikson. Those are some good books that I have particularly found helpful as a new kind of coming into leadership. Finally, I would advise a lot of reflection and patience. You're going to make mistakes and it's going to be uncomfortable and even embarrassing, but you'll get through it. The real mistake would be not reflecting and learning from the mistakes that you make as a new leader. Some of the ways that I do this is by soliciting feedback For my manager, for my team, for my peers, re-watching how I do on customer calls via long, which can be really cringy sometimes. But be patient, get through the cringe, try having a podcast oh gosh.
Sumitra Narayanan:Yeah, definitely it's cringy sometimes. Be patient, get through the cringe as hard as it is Nobody's perfect and keep at it. Just wanted to say trust me, as a new leader, you'll get better and better at it over time, so don't forget to celebrate the wins on the way as well.
Kristen Hayer:That's great advice. I love it. I'll add two books to the book lineup. One is the 12 Elements of Great Managing. I think that book is fantastic. It's like a Maslow's hierarchy of need for building engaged employees. It goes through 12 different elements of what it takes to create engaged employees. I think if you're considering leadership, that book will help you decide whether or not it's right for you. Then the other one that I think is great for new managers and I'm turning around and looking at my bookshelf right now it's the Effective Manager by Mark Horstman. It goes into how to have really great one-on-ones, how to build relationships with your team, how to have good coaching conversations with your group, accountability all of those things that are core to being a new manager. That's another book that I would add to the list. That I think is really great.
Sumitra Narayanan:Wow, I definitely want to add those to my list as well.
Kristen Hayer:Yeah, check them out. They're both really good. My team from many companies ago will tell you how much I used to make everybody read the 12 Elements. It's been around for a while, but it's got a ton of data behind it. I think it's a really solid read. It has great examples and it really does tell you whether or not management is or is not for you. Don't get into it just for the money and the glory. It's definitely not about that.
Sumitra Narayanan:There's so much more to it than just that, honestly.
Kristen Hayer:Last question, this is a broader one what do you see as the biggest trend in Customer Success right now, and why?
Sumitra Narayanan:Sure, everybody is probably talking about AI, but I'll bring up something more human-centric. Okay, CSMs are often so focused on getting into the weeds on tactical customer questions, are going on and on about their product that they forget to take a step back and be genuinely curious about high-level customer goals. Unfortunately, you can't truly solve for what you don't know. In my opinion, discovery, conventionally thought of as a sales skill, is increasingly surfacing as a need to have skill for CSMs, even at SaaStr 2023 recently. So, Sunita Chakraborty, the CRO at Miro, was saying and I wholeheartedly agree with this there is no post sales in SaaS. You're always proving value and reselling to customers.
Sumitra Narayanan:This is a mindset shift. Keep customers at the center, and I think without discovery you can't do that. If you want to prove value, you've got to know your customer's goals and what really moves the needle for them. Definitely can't do this without discovery, and what I found helpful to bridge this discovery gap is Bob London's radically authentic discovery framework, and through just a few brief, simple questions from this framework, I've uncovered customer wins, opportunities and even big risks. I really feel that this is a game changer because it's lightweight, efficient and actually customer-centric, versus being product-centric as customer success evolves and industry innovates at breakneck speed, it's become all the more critical to smartly anticipate your customers need it's in order to stay relevant to them. Even Wayne McCulloch alludes to this in his book the Seven Pillars of Customer Success, in his chapter on the future of customer success. I strongly feel the discovery is the fundamental basis for being proactive as a CSM at this day and age.
Kristen Hayer:Yeah, I agree, I think, with AI really coming into play in a real way right now, and not to bring it back to AI, because I know we're all talking about AI right now but I think this ties into it, Then the value that we as humans bring to this is the ability to think about and talk about what a customer really values and what outcomes they're really looking for as a business.
Kristen Hayer:I was talking to one of our clients the other day and we both were agreeing that customer success is not a happiness department. Customer Success is results department and a value department and making sure that customers are getting a return on their investment department. In order to do that, we need to understand what it is they're looking for. I love Bob's set of questions in his framework. I think that that is fantastic. I think there's other tools that are out there around doing discovery by doing some homework on customers' websites.
Kristen Hayer:We like to use the Business Model Canvas tool that's out there. Anyone can go download that from Google. Business schools use it all the time. It's a great way to get in the mindset of thinking about how your customers go to market and how they do business. That can help you understand what they care about and what they value. I love that you bring that up because, even though it's not about AI, it is about AI because we all need to move in that direction in order to have a place in the future. Great call out. Well, Sumitra, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to join me today on the podcast. I appreciate all of your advice to our audience on how to make that transition from individual contributor to leader. We'll put the link to your article in the show notes and we'll also put that other link that you mentioned in there as well. If someone wanted to connect with you directly, what's the best way for them to reach out?
Sumitra Narayanan:Yes, certainly folks can reach out to me on LinkedIn. We can definitely link to that in the show notes. It's basically just linkedincom, I believe, in slash Sumitra one, so pretty easy. We can link to that and feel free to reach out via email as well. So that's my first name, Sumitra, at alumnistanfordedu.
Kristen Hayer:Perfect, Sumitra. Thank you again. I also want to thank our producer, Russell Bourne, and our audio experts at Aura Forum Audio. This podcast is a production of Success League Radio. To learn more about the Success Leads consulting and training offerings, please visit our website, thesuccessleague. io. For more great customer success content, follow the Success League on LinkedIn. You can subscribe to Success League Radio on Apple, Google, Amazon anywhere else you get your podcasts and thanks for listening. We hope you'll join us next time.